Ep. 8 | The Market-able English Major with Abi Shoaff


Jen Carroll 0:01
Hey there, it’s time once again for the meaningful measurable marketing podcast. I’m Jen Carroll.

Annalisa Hilliard 0:06
And I’m Annalisa Hillierd,

Jen Carroll 0:07
and together we are the names of data dames marketing.

Annalisa Hilliard 0:11
As the Data Dames, Jen and I are marketing strategy consultants who help our clients align marketing, business goals and measure results that matter.

Jen Carroll 0:19
As longtime friends we avidly consume and critique all kinds of drinks spend as much time outdoors as possible and are always learning.

Annalisa Hilliard 0:26
We also strive to stay on top of what’s happening in our industry.

Jen Carroll 0:29
Our goal with this podcast is to look at today’s biggest marketing trends many requiring enterprise level teams and budgets to fully implement and try to apply them in ways that makes sense for small to midsize businesses.

Annalisa Hilliard 0:40
We hope you’ll subscribe to our podcast and leave us a review. You can connect with Jen and me via our website, datadamesmarketing.com, or on LinkedIn where we do most of our social media networking.

Jen Carroll 0:54
This podcast features an interview Annalise and I recorded in November 2020 with our intern Abby shoaf. Abby is an English and creative writing major at Malone University, which is where we Dana dame’s received our bachelor’s degrees. Even though there are references to Christmas time beverages the heart of this episode is timeless. Writing is a critical skill for most careers, including marketing. In fact, she recently wrote a blog post about that, and I’ll include a link to it in the show notes.

I love Abby’s way of looking at the intersection of design thinking, creative thinking and strategic thinking, which is something I’ve been pondering a lot lately myself. An added bonus in this episode for those who market to college age students and young professionals. Abby talks about what themes and messages resonate with her right now. Without further ado, here’s our interview with Abby.

Annalisa Hilliard 1:44
Welcome to the Morning Show

Jen Carroll 1:45
with Jen and Annalisa, the day to day games. And today we have a special guest, Abby show. Good morning, Abby.

Abi Shoaff 1:56
Good morning.

Jen Carroll 1:58
Abby is a student at Malone University and a very special student to us because she is our intern. And so today we’re going to give her a chance to share her perspective. Well, hey, Abby, we’re gonna start with our favorite segment now. I guess it shouldn’t be our favorite segment, but it’s pretty awesome. It’s the What are you drinking? segment so tell us what are you drinking today? or what have you been drinking in recent days? Now? You’re not 21 so we understand.

Annalisa Hilliard 2:29
It won’t be too interesting.

Abi Shoaff 2:34
Yeah, I’ve just got my international delight iced coffee with

Unknown Speaker 2:38
a game

Abi Shoaff 2:40

Jen Carroll 2:41
Wow, where do you get that at? Malone?

Abi Shoaff 2:44
I bought it from Walmart.

Annalisa Hilliard 2:48
Is that like the creamer thing?

Abi Shoaff 2:50
Yeah, it’s one of those like, big cartons of coffee that already?

Annalisa Hilliard 2:55
Yeah, yeah. Like Sugar Plum Fairy.

Abi Shoaff 2:58
Yeah, kind of like that, like gingerbread.

Annalisa Hilliard 3:01
Gingerbread pumpkin spice latte.

Jen Carroll 3:03
So Oh, yeah. So you probably you probably don’t even need to eat the rest of the day. That will just keep you going.


Well, let’s see. Today we are and Lisa and I are back drinking our usual our cherry bland But what have we been drinking in recent days that we should Oh, like last night we

Annalisa Hilliard 3:23
had a corn whiskey. That was a hot pepper corn whiskey. And I mixed it with ginger beer.

Jen Carroll 3:33
It was it was actually really good. I was I was feisty. It was

Annalisa Hilliard 3:36
but I was hesitant. But once I know what I should garnish that with like jalapeno or something

Jen Carroll 3:42
extra hot. Okay.

Annalisa Hilliard 3:45
Just highlights what’s in the dream. When you’re 21 Abby will make you one.

Jen Carroll 3:54
You have to come back. You have to come back today to Damson. We’re gonna Yeah, well, right.

Abi Shoaff 3:58
We’ll set you back next month. Okay.

Jen Carroll 4:01

Abi Shoaff 4:03
I’ll be 21 next month.

Annalisa Hilliard 4:05

Jen Carroll 4:05

Annalisa Hilliard 4:06
Are you Oh, we’re

so excited. Oh, well, I guess. Spring semester. All

Jen Carroll 4:12
right. Spring Lake has a whole new dimension.

Abi Shoaff 4:16
The other deals my next internship. Absolutely.

Annalisa Hilliard 4:20
I think you pick the right internship.

Jen Carroll 4:26
So we didn’t really think this out very well. Who is our small business shout out today.

Annalisa Hilliard 4:32
Abby, do you have a small business that you’d like to support?

Abi Shoaff 4:36
Um, I know we’ve talked about walkie talkie in the past. Oh, yeah. I’m not sure if you guys have given them a shout out think

Jen Carroll 4:42
we have no I don’t think we have that’s a that’s

Abi Shoaff 4:45
awesome. Yeah. My favorite coffee shops and kin and it’s really close to Allah and I can walk there and just a few minutes. Awesome. Yeah. Oh yeah. My friends and I we love walkie talkie and kin,

Annalisa Hilliard 4:57
but they don’t have the international coffee creamer. They’re, they’re like, they’re like the real deal.

Abi Shoaff 5:02
They are the real deal.

Annalisa Hilliard 5:04
Yeah. They, they have their eggnog latte out now.

Abi Shoaff 5:07
Oh, do that. Yeah.

Annalisa Hilliard 5:08
Are you into that?

Abi Shoaff 5:11
I’ll totally try it. Okay,

Jen Carroll 5:12
you want an even better the eggnog, they get it from hartzler steri, which is nearby. And it’s amazing. I am not an eggnog fan at all, or at least I have not been in the past until I tried hard slurs, it’s just mind blowing. So it is worth that we’re worth a try. And I think that the owners are Milan grads. Yes. At least.

Annalisa Hilliard 5:34
I don’t know.

Jen Carroll 5:35
Think so. Lindsay? bleep. Oh,

Annalisa Hilliard 5:37
blow the owners. Yeah. Yeah. The owners of walkie talkie are absolutely. Yes.

Jen Carroll 5:44
We have a little Malone thing going today. Pretty awesome. We can give a little shout out to our alma mater. So let’s dive in a little bit this morning with Abby. Are you ready?

Abi Shoaff 5:57
I’m ready.

Annalisa Hilliard 5:58
Like a game show.

Jen Carroll 5:59

we let’s give you let’s get ready to start

Annalisa Hilliard 6:03
Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? Well, she’s no lifeline. No 5050 All right.

Jen Carroll 6:12
Abby, tell us about your background and, and your major at Malone. Because it was a little unusual, I think for you to maybe reach out today to dame’s All right,

Abi Shoaff 6:22
well, I’m a junior right now Malone University and I’m an English and creative writing double major, I never really had a certain particular plan of what I wanted to do with my major. I just knew that I loved literature. And I’ve always loved writing various genres, fiction, historical fiction, and nonfiction as well. poetry, I just never knew really, what I wanted to do with it. One of my professors, Steve Jensen, he had hooked me up with a list of ideas of different companies and organizations and canton of places. So just look into on my own to do research on and just to kind of get a feel for what kinds of job opportunities there are for English majors. Because I think a lot of us, we kind of assume, if you’re studying English, you’re going to teach or you’re going to try to be an author. And I say try to be because, you know, we all have this dream of being a big writer, and very few of us really will be the next JK Rowling or what have you. Right? So yeah, I had looked around a different companies just kind of getting a feel of what the workplace is like for people fresh out of college, and decided it was about time for an internship. I looked into a few places, and I heard about this place called day to day. And I was like, What is that? That’s very interesting.

Annalisa Hilliard 7:49
Was it the name? Was it the name of

Abi Shoaff 7:51
Yes, I actually, I was compelled. I was like, what’s, what is this all about? And I wasn’t really expecting to land an internship with you guys. I was thinking, you know, I don’t have a lot of experience at all in marketing. I haven’t taken marketing courses. I’m not majoring in Business or marketing. And so I wasn’t really sure how this would fit in to my major. But as I did more research, I came to find that a lot of people who study English do pursue careers in the business world, specifically in marketing with public relations and communications, it’s pretty, the coincide pretty well together. Because if you are a good writer and a good reader, you have a lot of the critical thinking skills necessary to be able to have clear communication in the workplace. And that’s a skill that I think every business and every company needs more of, I think as an English major, really, I’m a lot more marketable than maybe I thought,

Annalisa Hilliard 8:53
gentlemen, you relate to

Jen Carroll 8:54
i was i was gonna be a English major. Yes. I was gonna say that’s, you know, when we interviewed you, Abby, of course, that was that was a key part to to winning us over because when we, when we Yeah, we weren’t looking for an intern, as you know, as you mentioned, and

Annalisa Hilliard 9:13
that was the biggest challenge,

Jen Carroll 9:14

Annalisa Hilliard 9:16
Here we’ve taken it.

Jen Carroll 9:19
But yeah, as Abby was, obviously I’ve been a writer for a long time. And I was an English major at Malone. Also and English and communications. And yeah, the importance of writing good writing is so critical, and so many fields but I definitely have made a lot of use of my writing skills in marketing. So yeah, she pretty much just like

Annalisa Hilliard 9:43
she hasn’t started working on her book yet.

Jen Carroll 9:45
Yet my book, but the one that I’m never going to write But anyway, but yeah, Abby’s messaging was on point to me 100% she sold me.

So it was an excellent

Abi Shoaff 9:56
sale sale, and I got to meet the dogs on day one.

Jen Carroll 9:59
That’s right. Oh, Yeah, he’s right, the office dog. So if we talked much about our dogs, I don’t want to like think I will

Annalisa Hilliard 10:05
have too long gone,

Jen Carroll 10:06
we won’t go, we won’t, we won’t take a doggy trail. But we’ll have to, we’ll have to introduce our dogs on the podcast at some point. But you know, that’s actually a great point that you were making about creative and critical thinking and, and productivity, because that’s something that’s a perspective, I think that you bring that maybe somebody who is majoring specifically in marketing might not. So tell us a little bit about your creative thinking process? Sure. Well, I’ve

Abi Shoaff 10:37
done some research on different patterns of thought, such as design thinking, creative thinking, strategic thinking. And I think, my creative thinking it goes hand in hand with, with communication, because I think in creative thinking, it’s important to prioritize other people’s perspectives. It’s a way of looking at something in a new way, really in a new light. And so I think being a creative writing major, as well as an English major, helps me with creative thinking a lot, because I am constantly trying to look at things in a new way to write about it or to understand someone else’s writing about those things. Even just reading literature for fun or for school, you’re constantly trying to adapt your perspective to the perspective of the characters or whatever is happening and in whatever you’re reading. I think creative thinking really is kind of central to a lot of jobs, and we don’t even realize a great point.

Jen Carroll 11:40
What did you think of the marketing industry itself? Before you, you know, before you reached out to an outsider? Yeah, yeah. I mean, no, I think it’s, I think we get

Annalisa Hilliard 11:51
is talking about getting other people’s perspective.

Jen Carroll 11:53
Yeah, right. Right. Right.

Abi Shoaff 11:55
I think being someone who had so little experience or understanding of marketing, I kind of assumed and just summarize it, in my mind has been kind of like the car salesman, you know, of, we’re here to sell a product, and we will do what we have to do to make you want what we have. And you know, that’s just that’s what marketing is, you’re just selling things. And maybe there’s some deceit or trickery involved at times, and I didn’t ever really understand difference between even marketing firms versus marketing consultants and marketing strategists. And that’s something that this internship has really opened my mind to, that, you know, marketing, it’s not all about just selling things. It’s, it’s about helping your clients with whatever their objective is, and helping them with even just longevity of looking down the road and seeing what can we do to further your success, and to help you grow your business and reach more people. I don’t think I ever thought of marketing as being something particularly helpful so much as something that people do for their own gain under the guise of helping others think I had a more negative view of marketing than I even realized until I started to learn what it really is about.

Jen Carroll 13:16
And, you know, honestly, I think the industry has done a lot to create that perception over the years, you know, of like you said, trickery and deceit or, you know, just maybe not being, you know, completely honest, you know, about their products and services. But I feel like with the advent of maybe content marketing, in particular, which is, you know, has a lot of the writing and the creativity involved in it, it’s, it’s kind of morphed into trying to trying to educate, trying to share the information that people actually need to make decisions without the trickery involved. Not saying that there aren’t some companies that do that, of course, but I think that’s also part of, you know, working as, as a, you know, a consultancy that we are we we are always looking for, you know, the kinds of clients that want to do the very best buy by their customers as well. So that’s, you know, anything that’s super important to us. So, I guess this is a little bit of an opportunity, we don’t often get a chance to ask, you know, people of your age, Abby about, you know, what’s important to you. And, you know, and that’s kind of the research part about, you know, kind of getting into the heads of people that that we’re trying to reach so I kind of saw this as a little opportunity to do some research. So tell us a little bit about what about the mindset of you know, folks right now and in college, realizing Of course, you know, you’re not going to cover all the mindsets. People are right people are different, of course, but regardless A little bit about like, what your what your biggest wants needs. fears are right now, as you’re, you know, at the point that you are at,

Abi Shoaff 15:08
yeah, I can speak to that with my own perception and try to encapsulate more of a bigger mindset. But I would say right now, a lot of college students, at least, that I know, and for myself as well, we were really just wanting job stability. And it can be hard when you have a major that isn’t always seen as something super stable, trying to, you know, justify why you’re majoring in something that seems so useless, like creative writing, for example, trying to justify that to people and show them like, no, this is actually very important skill. And this is something I can take and go far with in my life. You know, that’s one of my early on fears that I struggled with. When I first came to college. And I was solely a creative writing major, I hadn’t added the English part at that point. And I think, as I’ve learned more and more, the more, the more confident I have become in my skills, and also in my decision to major and when I am, and I think that’s just part of my personal process. But overall, I think, in this time, it’s there’s a lot of uncertainty for not just the youth, but for the general population with COVID, especially, and then different political affiliations and elections happening. And there’s just a lot of unknown right now. And even to think about, what I’ll be doing next semester, is more difficult than it would have been in the past, for planning ahead. And things like that, because no one really knows what’s happening. And I think in a way, it’s, it’s interesting to be in college, during the year 2020. And to see, things feel like they’re really just falling apart everywhere. But then to look around and realize, you know, it’s this way for everyone, not just for me. So I think there are fears, and they’re also there’s a resurgence there of knowing that everyone in college is going to have their doubts and worries, and then everyone in the world now has has their own additional fears and worries. And I think being in college right now, during this era, is really an interesting, interesting perspective on that to see how different students are handling it. And yeah, so I would say right now something a lot of people are craving in and out of college is just stability, and knowing like, what am I going to do. And so in a time where everyone is lacking stability, it can be difficult, and then it can also be reassuring to know that you’re not alone.

Annalisa Hilliard 17:51
It’s good.

Jen Carroll 17:52
I guess when you think about the kinds of messages than that you might hear from marketers about various, you know, various products. I mean, what kinds of messages are then really speaking to what you what you need the like the stability, the the assurance that I guess it’s been a little bit overplayed, I think right now, but you know, we’re all in this together, you know, I mean, unity community, but yeah, I mean, on a deeper level, you know, I guess what kinds of, you know, example, I don’t if you have any examples of some, you know, some messages that have been, you know, particularly meaning to you from brands, or we’re gonna, you know, organizations that you find compelling.

Annalisa Hilliard 18:40
That’s a difficult question

Jen Carroll 18:41
it I know, right.

Annalisa Hilliard 18:43
Did you give her this question?

Jen Carroll 18:45
I asked her about products and messages and spaces that are resonating right now, but it is a hard question. I mean, I was even trying to think about, you know, bring brands that I thought have done a really good job of not over playing the we’re in this together thing, but

Annalisa Hilliard 19:02
I think it’s hard because there’s so much noise everywhere. Everyone feels like I think when when like we started dealing with the pandemic back in March of this year, like, I think like brands were like rushing to get their message out of like, how they’re handling it. And I remember like getting my like, my email inbox was just like, flooded. And it was like overdone. When in like, a couple of days you were like over hearing from brands.

Jen Carroll 19:35
That right. And also then to to layer on and not lightly Black Lives Matter, which was another layer of messaging that started to that end the election. Right. Right. All these right messaging on top of messaging, I think, you know, for the authenticity to shine through I think has been you know, It’s been a challenge. And I was, again, I’m still trying to still trying to think of a brand that I think it’s done really well.

Abi Shoaff 20:07
I mean, all I’m thinking of right now is, as an example, are like restaurants and things, how they, every restaurant immediately had to tell everyone what they were doing to combat COVID because as soon as it, you know, broke out, everyone was like, Well, what are restaurants doing? You know, and things are closing down, in some places and other places, things are open. And it’s like every drive thru that you go to, you have to read their little signs about their precautions that they’re taking. And, you know, you’ll see, depending on where you are, people will have a mask on or they won’t, or they’ll be having you put your own debit card. And instead of handing it to them and then swiping for you. It’s just like, it’s nothing. That’s a huge deal necessarily, or, like inconvenient, it’s just weird how everything has changed suddenly, and it’s like businesses weren’t prepared. And everyone’s just kind of looking at each other to see like, well, what are they doing? And how can I combat COVID in my business, and that’s something I noticed at least is just with restaurants especially, and then stores the procedures that they took with COVID with that idea of, oh, we’re all in this together, and kind of almost stealing from each other the

Annalisa Hilliard 21:19
ideas of what to do in this situation brings up like an interesting thought, like, online versus offline, right. So offline, you had to like, do a bunch of procedural changes. That obviously, like you said, like going to a restaurant or going to a store is like, you have to know what the new procedure is. Whereas like, if it’s a brand that’s like, mostly online, like what kind of changes like maybe they’re gonna have like slower shipping or something, but like, there’s no contact anyway. So it’s interesting, just to think about the differences there and how brands have to deal online versus offline.

Jen Carroll 22:06
And I think even Abby’s observation speaks to the very thing that she says she’s wanting most, which is stability, consistency. You know, and that’s obviously not something that we’ve, as a culture have been doing really well, for a number of reasons. But yeah, I think the more that brands can, you know, stress, things that are, you know, consistent, stable and meaningful, I think are the, you know, are the ones that are, are succeeding better in their in their messaging right now? Because that’s definitely initely. The kind of message people are craving, and they and rightfully so,

Annalisa Hilliard 22:48
I think that that brings like, an opportunity to light for small businesses and local businesses. I know, it’s obviously probably super challenging. For any business right now to feel comfortable financially or stable. I think that now’s the time that they have even more a stronger appeal to that, like, community, you know, local. Yeah. We’re, we’re pulling together to support each other by, you know, supporting local businesses, and putting that money back into the community.

Jen Carroll 23:32
Well, on a fun note, where our students are people with your mindset, hanging out online these days, Abby, so where where are the online spaces that are most important?

Annalisa Hilliard 23:45
There’s one thing I like about it. I mean, she’s not on social media.

Jen Carroll 23:49
I think that she is, but we’re just not like seeing it.

Abi Shoaff 23:55
I have social media. I don’t spend a lot of my time on it, though. Yeah. Okay. I

Annalisa Hilliard 23:59
think you’re a typical, maybe. But I like that.

Jen Carroll 24:03
I know, is that a typical or I would assume, like everyone else you might be getting some fatigue from like, and Lisa mentioned earlier, lots of noise. I mean, I have been very fatigued by it and have stepped away. How is that looking for you?

Abi Shoaff 24:19
Yeah, that’s a good point. I think in general, I already didn’t have a super high consumption of social media compared to a lot of my peers, maybe. But even now in the state of just chaos, in some ways that actually has increased my social media use, because I want to know what’s happening. I want to be informed. And so if I see something, and I’m not really sure if that’s if it’s true, if it’s believable, that causes me to look into it more and then here I am researching something just because I saw a little thing about it on social media. And I think in a way it’s helpful. Social media is and this time and then on the adverse It’s, it can be damaging, it can be overwhelming. And then of course, the whole idea of all media has a bias from whatever side it’s coming from. It’s coming from a side. And so I think it’s also healthy sometimes to step back from social media and recognize like, what a healthy amount of media consumption looks like, versus just letting it over, excuse me, overrun your life. A lot of people my age, I think, are on Twitter these days, more so than a lot of the other social media apps. Instagram has seen a bit of a decline. Facebook has been in decline for a while. But I also think the purpose of different apps are becoming more clearly different from each other. Which wasn’t something I had really noticed in the past. But I think depending on, depending on what they want to get out of social media, it will depend on which app they use,

Annalisa Hilliard 25:56
like, what about Tick Tock? I feel like if I was gonna have nine, I would do I would be on Tick Tock.

Abi Shoaff 26:02
Yeah, I I watch tic tocs. with my friends. Yeah. pretty often. Yeah, that one’s fun. And it’s like, it’s kind of like vine, which

passed away.

With with tech sockets, as started out as almost like an escape, I think, for a lot of people to get away from what’s happening and to make little funny things, or creative things, to short videos of what they’re doing to share with each other. And I think it really exploded over quarantine, when people were just kind of stuck in their house and a lot of students, high school, middle school, college students, all of us at the same time seem to discover this app, and then it just kind of blew up almost overnight.

Annalisa Hilliard 26:46
So now they have the audience. Do you think like that platform is changing? Like its purpose? A bit? I

Abi Shoaff 26:54
think so. Just like with any social media, what you see on it is catered to, like what you click on and things like that,

Annalisa Hilliard 27:02
like details about advertising, right?

Abi Shoaff 27:05
Yeah, depending on what you watch, and what you like and interact with, that’s what will stay on your feed. And so I think if you’re looking for something other than funny videos, you’ll find it but even if you’re not Tick Tock is evolving, just like everything else. And as become a platform for some people to speak about topics that really are they’re passionate about, such as Coronavirus, or black lives matter or the election and other things we’ve talked about.

Jen Carroll 27:36
And I’ve seen it also enter quite heavily into Instagram. And so I’m you know, I’m seeing like a lot of Tick tock, I’m seeing a lot of overlap now where people are interacting on different platforms trying to bring their content from Yeah, from one to the other to try and reach different audiences. So

Annalisa Hilliard 27:56
that’s always what happens with those platforms. It’s like they get an audience and then all of us, you know, not all of a sudden, that’s that’s probably their plan from the beginning is to get enough of an audience to make money for doing advertising. We just watched the social dilemma last weekend. And that one is on Netflix. I don’t know, have you watched Dabi?

Abi Shoaff 28:19
I’ve heard of it. Actually, it’s on my list, but I haven’t watched it.

Annalisa Hilliard 28:21
It was good. I mean, for us, it wasn’t like, super shocking, because we’re kind of surrounded by that stuff in our industry. But yeah, there were some good things to take away from that and just be reminded of how social media actually works.

Jen Carroll 28:41
And I think to being inside the industry, I mean, there’s, you know, there’s always value to being advocates, within an industry and I, I feel, you know, very compelled to, to be that kind of advocate for change in the business model that that we see. And that was something that was highlighted very strongly in the social dilemma was the fact that the business model itself, the the commodity that essentially is being sold, which is people’s attention, you know, people themselves, now we’re the product, right where the product, and the business model needs to change. Oh, I think that’s definitely something that’s, you know, key and actually, we usually finish up each podcast talking a little bit about what are you learning and or what’s bringing you joy or you know, what’s giving you energy right now? And I think that idea for me like how, and you know, Annalisa and I in this industry be you know, advocates for a change in the business model that we see is something that I’ve been mulling over I mean, I’m you know, not ready to take to the streets yet with my with any with any signs or anything, but you know, how can we Be that kind of advocate, as marketers. Oh, that’s something that I’ve been been mulling over. I don’t know if Annalisa. Abby, do you guys have anything to share about? What’s bringing you energy? what you’re learning?

Abi Shoaff 30:13
For me, I think, as I’m closing out this semester, getting nearer to winter break, um, I’ve been really focused on summarizing my courses and since with finals coming up and just kind of seeing, what is it that I’ve learned, and what am I taking away from this semester? And I think the semester has been interesting for many reasons. But one of them is, this is the first internship I’ve ever had. I didn’t even anticipate how much I would learn from it before I started it. And as I’m closing out this semester, and we’re closing the internship soon, I’m just thinking like, when I’m going to take with me, yeah, I’ve been looking into a lot of things that I didn’t realize would be interesting until now. So I’ve been researching, like, artificial intelligence.

Annalisa Hilliard 31:01

Abi Shoaff 31:03
different, different thinking processes and marketing strategies and things that I maybe would have thought were boring before I looked into them.

Annalisa Hilliard 31:12
That’s awesome. Yeah. So I just started a book called The Power of Habit. And its subtitle is why we do what we do in life and in business. It took a little while in the introduction, I was kinda like, okay, what’s, let’s get to the point they were and they were using a story to kind of get your attention. Sometimes stories lose me. I’m just like, just get to the point. But I can see that she’s like a different kind of thinker than me. Right. Right. But anyway, I did make it into the the first chapter and so far, it’s it’s very interesting. And I I’m excited to continue into into the book. There’s a couple of Let me see I have it up here on my phone, a couple of chapters that sound interesting Starbucks in the habit of success when willpower becomes automatic. I don’t know that. I agree with that.

Jen Carroll 32:08
Yeah. for mercy, Starbucks barista,

Annalisa Hilliard 32:11
the power of a crisis, how leaders create habits through accident and design. That sounds germane. So yeah, if you. Anyone gets a chance to check it out. I think it’s probably a book worth worth your time.

Jen Carroll 32:25
What are you reading right now? Abby? I bet you’re reading something good, but it’s not khaleeji. Right.

Abi Shoaff 32:32
I’ve been reading a lot of James Baldwin. Ah, yeah. He’s one of my favorite American authors and i a lot of his work is very prevalent for today. Absolutely.

Annalisa Hilliard 32:44
That’s great. Yeah. Nice. What is his most known work? It’s not coming to me at the moment.

Abi Shoaff 32:50
I’m probably go tell it on the mountain. Okay. I think that was his first novel. I could be wrong. But I think that was one of his most famous, most successful. I just finished Giovanni’s Room, which is a different fiction novel. really insightful. Yeah, I

love all of his

Annalisa Hilliard 33:10
work that I’ve read, though. I need to get into fiction. I’ve been working on that for all of my life.

Jen Carroll 33:15
Yeah, I was gonna say

Annalisa Hilliard 33:17
I’m in the number. Okay. I’m not getting into that track

Jen Carroll 33:21
widely. Did you know that and Lisa is a nonfiction kind of gal got a damn Yeah. So

Abi Shoaff 33:29
it doesn’t surprise me.

Jen Carroll 33:32
Well, I on the other hand, and reading some fiction, because I am a fiction lover. I am no I’m reading half bro courses by Jeannette walls. And this is actually my second book by Jeannette that I’m reading and I love her style. It’s, well, it’s biographical in nature, about her family. And this is happens to be a story about her grandmother, but I just kind of love the insight that she brings to what would otherwise be untold stories about people’s lives that are you know, I think a lot of times we get the idea that we have to accomplish most of us getting teary eyed everybody.

Oh my god. I feel like we have to accomplish great things or whatever be, you know, amazing, but actually, people’s everyday lives are pretty darn interesting.

Abi Shoaff 34:26
Oh, yeah. I like that.

Jen Carroll 34:29
So that’s what I’m reading.

Annalisa Hilliard 34:31
Same. And you can summarize it for me when you’re done. And then it can be like,

Jen Carroll 34:35
No, no, you have to do the hard work. You have to read the book. I’m

Annalisa Hilliard 34:39
just an ordinary person.

Jen Carroll 34:41
Write your story. What

Annalisa Hilliard 34:42
I did there. Oh, yeah.

Jen Carroll 34:43
Right. Well write your story. Or have Abby write it? She could be your she could be your biographer. For sure. Well, thanks, Abby.

Annalisa Hilliard 34:53
I think this is one of our best episodes. Absolutely interesting. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks

Abi Shoaff 34:58
for having me on the podcast.

Annalisa Hilliard 35:00
Yeah Oh, now you have something to take home to your family and be like yeah, this is see what my internship in summary you’ll be like I’m famous now. I was on the data games

Jen Carroll 35:13
by people that

Well, I I we don’t know what the future is gonna hold with with everything. Our hope is that Abby will be back with us this spring for more learning and more sharing she’s episode I know, I was gonna say if if anybody who is listening if you can’t tell you will, you should know now exactly why we hired her. No,

Annalisa Hilliard 35:35

Jen Carroll 35:35
She’s pretty awesome. So thanks, Abby. Yeah, thank you. That wraps up another episode of meaningful measurable marketing if you manage marketing, sales, customer service or operations for growing small business, we hope you found this podcast helpful. Any tool resource or article we referenced can be found in the show notes for this episode. And if you haven’t already, subscribe to our podcast or left us a review. We hope you’ll do both today. I’m Jen Carroll, my co host Annalisa Hillier, deny our marketing strategy consultants. And together we are the day to day games of day to dames marketing. Learn more about us at data dams marketing.com


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